IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: Files will no longer be available after October 31st, 2020

I will stop paying for hosting on all Grrl on Grrl episodes at the end of this month, so now is the time to download/archive episodes!

If someone wants to put in the effort/time/energy to research and set up a more permanent (and free) host for Grrl on Grrl episodes ( bandcamp?), please let me know! It’s been on my to-do-list for years and has just never been done. It may need fresher energy to get done.

If you’d like to stay in contact for any reason, I still check

San Diego protesters

San Diego protesters and support:

I will be starting interviews to document an oral history of the protests. Whether you’re on the ground, running jail support from your home, or any other role, please tell me your story. The interviews will be released pretty raw with little editing (because I don’t have the spoons for that). Your anonymity will be respected.

If you do not know me, I used to have a podcast where I interviewed marginalized folks in music. In my writing and podcasting work I’ve always strived to amplify other voices that are not my own. Let’s do it again.

Please email

Goodbye Grrl on Grrl! and fundraising

Hi folks,

Remember how I said I’d put out a couple more episodes? Well, I have no excuses. I’m sorry. Grrl on Grrl Podcast is done. It’s been done for awhile and no matter how much I told myself “okay, just put out one more, one more, one more”, time, energy, desire, and mental bandwidth did not match up. It is time to be honest with myself and with you.

Thank you *so much* for your continued support of the podcast. I *see* that there are people still listening. It’s a little mind boggling. Between that, your likes and messages via Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, I got to feel what community feels like, so thank you, again, so, so, much.

This is the not-so-fun part. I’m asking for $.

I’d like to continue hosting the files, no matter what, because I’m proud of this podcast. I’m proud of my guests for all the work they’ve done and continue to do. And I want to continue sharing what we’ve done together.

Libsyn costs $5/month to keep the files hosted there. It’s not much, I know, but as I am about to enter a new phase of my life (massage school and then… grad school???), I’m trying to slim down my monthly expenses.

And I’m trying to be better about asking for help. There’s definitely a little bit in the back of my head that’s telling me that it’s okay to just… stop hosting the files, nobody will notice, etc. but I honestly can’t do that. I want the files to stay up.

So what say you? Can you throw in $1, $2, $3? I think my first goal is to raise about $60, which will pay for the following year. If you’ve ever been inspired by any of the guests, tracked down new artists or bought albums because of Grrl on Grrl, or have seen the benefit of a music podcast from a feminist perspective, and can afford it, please consider donating.

Thank you again, for all your past, present, and future support. Shoot me an email if you have any questions. I will also continue to keep y’all updated on how much we’ve raised together.

Love, June

P.S. Eventually I’d like to move the files over to somewhere else where I only pay for what gets downloaded/listened to, rather than a flat monthly rate. However, like, I said, I don’t have the mental bandwidth and energy for that (plus I’d have to change all my links… ugh). Does anybody have any tips or suggestions on this front?

P.P.S. If we somehow pass the $60 goal in this next year, I’d like to start reimbursing the people who have made GOG possible by the donation of their time. That includes all guests of the podcast (starting with episode 1, and including guests from episodes I never released), featured artists (including those who have work on my “Interlude” episodes), and unpaid behind-the-scenes help.

Digital Payment Methods:

(Please let me know this is for “GOG” or “Grrl on Grrl”, and if you’d like to be thanked publicly, please leave your name!)$JuneOwatari

Lys Guillorn on chronic illness, self-care, and putting out music anyway (GRRL034)

Welcome to Grrl on Grrl episode 34 with Lys Guillorn, a “solo artist with a band”.

Lys and I recorded this all the way back in *last* July in 2017. Since then, she has released the split single “How to Move a Mountain” and more recently the song “Tinctoria”. (i’m sorry DID I JUST READ “LICHEN DYE” in the description for the physical release???? be still my heart.))

The majority of our conversation runs the gamut of mental health and chronic illness issues, including depression, fibromyalgia, the mad genius trope, symptoms & self-care routines, and how they affect and inform her songwriting. Near the end, we chat about being a solo songwriter with a band and how collaboration and community work together to build a better Connecticut and music scene.

This episode is the first to be edited by the amazing Sarah Parish who answered my call for help a few months ago. Thank you so much Sarah! She has been amazing help in getting my ass into gear releasing these episodes. Without her hard work and assistance, I’m not sure I would have finished these upcoming episodes! If you want to learn more about her current projects, scroll down to the bottom of the shownotes.

Thanks to The Fresh Brunettes for providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby. And of course, thank you to Lys Guillorn for her patience and to all of you folks for still checking in.


Download GRRL034 at Libsyn [~51MB; 55 minutes] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Putting out her first album… writing it in 1998, finally putting it out 2003
  • Different music industry then and now (no Bandcamp!)
  • Being in the publishing industry and using that as a guide to self-release album
    • Hysteria … women’s humor magazine – “Getting in touch with your inner bitch”
    • Spin Magazine
    • What did you learn from working at Hysteria?
  • [12:05] Elisa Flynn – “My Blood”
  • Content warning: pain/fibromyalgia, depression
  • Her May 2017 album “I’m a Boy”
    • Becoming really ill in 2016
    • Background on her song “M.K.” written while she was bedridden
  • Depression symptoms
  • Self-care routine
    • Banjo!!!!!
    • Artist’s Way in the morning
    • Yoga
  • Do depression and fibromyalgia affect each other?
    • Taking breaks during certain months because of fibromyalgia and depression, with a few exceptions
  • [26:35] Lys Guillorn – “M.K.”
  • Is music industry better or worse now?
  • Not being able to tour
  • “I can’t separate my experience to have regrets”
    • June talks about health insurance/not taking antidepressants
  • Mental illness – being in the arts with a mental illness
    • stereotype of the “male creative genius” vs women, whose mental health problems manifest in less “socially acceptable” ways
    • what parts of depression get demonized or put on a pedestal
    • June talks about hiatuses from Grrl on Grrl, for example – how am I supposed to be consistent with depression?
    • we’re not allowed to take breaks for ourselves
  • Has stigmatization lessened? – Tumblr, spoonie community
    • capitalism is the one shaming me into thinking that I need to be productive
    • to learn how to make something for myself that represents me as my own person
    • you’re on your OWN schedule, not on anybody else’s schedule
  • [41:30] Chica Non Grata – “Burning Spark” (Website)
  • Solo songwriter but with a band & having awesome collaborators
  • Songwriting style changes?
    • 4 track as a writing tool
  • Connecticut music scene – New Haven (and Hartford too)
    • “we all want each other to succeed” / share resources
    • Cygnus Radio, WPKN, and other independent and/or local radio
    • venues: bar, DIY spaces, Neverending Books, Cafe 9
    • The power of local mags/entertainment news


Sarah Parish Bio

More about who helped with Episode 34…

After my frantic call for help to finish the last few interviews of Grrl on Grrl, San Diego freelancer and activist Sarah Parish stepped up to the plate to help with interview editing–cutting out silences, false starts, and in general just making sure the interview flowed together and made sense. The amount of work ahead of me was daunting me enough that I couldn’t get myself started, so thank you Sarah!

As a freelancer, Sarah has done graphic design work creating teachers’ manuals for the organization Kitabna, whose main mission is to create illustrated multi-lingual children’s books for children displaced by war and and violence. “[Kitabna’s] books aim to create pride, learning, fun and dignity in the stigmatized refugee experience“, and the organizations’ 7 books have been translated to Arabic, Kurdish Sorani, Turkish, French, and more.

Sarah also volunteers at Lambda Archives, who collect and document LGBT history and culture in the San Diego County, Tijuana/Baja California region, including recorded audio/video oral accounts (some which are available to stream online), over 40,000 historical photographs (currently in the process of being digitized), and other projects.


Writer Carina Browder on writing about what actual inclusivity would look like in the music scene (GRRL033)

Welcome to Grrl on Grrl episode 33! In this episode, Carina Browder joined me over Skype……….. more than a year ago, to discuss writing about music, especially in the pop punk scene, talking shit about a *certain music publication* and offering less problematic ways to learn about music and embrace diversity. She is currently on hiatus from freelance writing but has started work for a pop culture convention.

I had planned on smooshing this interview with another one I did with Kika Chatterjee, another music writer, but fuck it. They each deserve their own episode. You’ll hear Kika’s soon(ish?), along with interviews from Boneth Ahaneku and Lys Guillorn, the latter two edited with the amazing Sarah Parish, who answered my call for help.

Thanks to The Fresh Brunettes for providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby. And of course, thank you to Carina Browder for her patience and to all of you folks for still checking in.


Download GRRL033 at Libsyn [~38 minutes; 37MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Mentioned articles in intro: “Defend Girls Not Pop Punk” at the Tempest and “Your Call for Inclusion Leaves Me Out”
  • Inspiration for bringing intersectionality into music writing
    • Atlanta – seeing kids with their parents at shows – reminding Carina of her dad taking her to shows
    • Social media management/starting a Tumblr community for black girls who liked pop punk and alternative
  • What drew Carina to write about music?
  • Why write about music specifically?
  • [11:00] Staircase Spirits – “Roulette”
  • Talking about not just gender-based inclusion but racial inclusion as well
  • Culture shock when moving away from other multiracial military kids to more segregated Atlanta, Georgia
    • Clinging to representation in pop culture
  • What kind of issues does Carina want to cover or want to see covered?
    • People are multi-faceted and have multiple identities
    • Adia Victoria
  • June: being referred to as just “the Asian”, being seen as the outsider, “the Othering”
  • [23:45] No Home – “Suffering for Reputation”
  • What draws you to cover a certain artist?
  • Dream publications – wanting to write for teen-oriented magazines
  • Problematic publications – Alt Press
    • See list below for alternative sources/writers to follow
  • Things to keep in mind as a music writer / Advice for a music writer
  • Writing about diversity/pitching about diversity – actually examine what diversity looks like
  • What do you think we can do to bring more POC to spotlight?
    • Paying more attention to local music
  • [34:20] Kareen Lomax – “Melatonin”


Carina’s Suggested Writers to Follow

I need help.

Hi. It is with much anxiety that I’m asking y’all for help.

Would anybody be interested in helping me sync up interview tracks, and even further, helping with basic content editing (taking out obvious tangents, long pauses)? I’m not even sure which part of the editing process is filling me with the most dread, but regardless, it’s stopping me from actually sitting down in front of my computer and actually doing work on them.

I can offer small payment in addition to trade in services (content writing, Tarot readings from a personal/creative growth angle, “brochure”-type web design). Help with one, help with some, help with all, any degree of assistance would be sooo helpful getting my ass into gear.

If you’d like to help finish up Grrl on Grrl in 2018, please shoot me an email at, or I’d appreciate a share to a friend or on your wall. Thank you again!

2018 Updates and Announcement

Dear Grrl on Grrl listeners (and fans??),

I just wanted to let you know that I haven’t forgotten about you, and that I still have episodes on their way.

Next up will be a joint episode with Kika Chatterjee and Carina Browder, who I interviewed as music writers, but in the year+ since I recorded them, have grown into other roles in the arts and music scene. So I’m very excited to share that with you soon. But it’s taking longer than I expected, between the logistics of “storyboarding” two discrete interviews and turning it into one episode, panicking about other projects I’ve had in the pipelines for awhile, and just plain needing a break. (But, if you’ve been listening long enough, you know that I’m not shy about taking those breaks!)

After that I have 4 interviews which will probably take awhile to get out as well. Why? Well, they’re still in their raw forms, and 2 of the interviews are with the full band, each member on a separate track. It’s going to take *awhile* to edit. But I *will* edit them and share them. It’s a promise I made myself at the start of the year, and it’s one I intend to keep.

That might seem ominous, and maybe it is.

I’ve found myself in a different mental, emotional, and philosophical space nowadays that I don’t think Grrl on Grrl completely embodies anymore. That’s not to say that I am not proud of the podcast, because I am, of the place this podcast can have in feminist/music discussions, and of myself, because up to this point, the podcast is probably the longest-running project I’ve ever had my hands on. But I’ve decided that once these remaining interviews are released, that I will be finished producing Grrl on Grrl.

The files will remain because I still think Grrl on Grrl can be an important resource. In fact, once I’ve finished releasing the remaining interviews, I plan on going through and creating school- and family-friendly versions of each episode, which would include cutting out adult language and adult tangents that wouldn’t be appropriate for say, a middle school or high school environment. (And if anybody has any insight on this, please feel free to get in contact!)

The message I wanted to put out when I first envisioned Grrl on Grrl was the message I wanted to give ME when I was in middle school and high school. So if there’s a way I can do that for others with this podcast, I will.

Thank you so much for the past two years and for this next year. If it weren’t for all of your support, your post shares and retweets, your Instagram hearts, your emails, I’m not sure I would have made it past the first three episodes.

So stay tuned for Kika and Carina, The Variants, Lys Guillorn, Boneth of Mr. Atomic, and Ludlow!


Lisa Mungo on Seattle, how to be new band, and inclusivity in metal (GRRL032)

Welcome to Grrl on Grrl episode 32, featuring Lisa Mungo of metal band He Whose Ox is Gored and hardcore band Fucked and Bound.

I met with Lisa in 2016 when He Whose Ox is Gored played in San Diego, and we recorded this interview in February after the first women’s march… yes, it’s taken me a whole year to put this out. Yiiiikes.

Since the interview, Lisa’s other band–who we talk about but not name in this episode–Fucked and Bound, announced the release of their first album Suffrage.  You can pre-order (or buy, depending on when you see this) the album via Atomic Action Records. They start shipping February 16, 2018.

We also talk about Lisa’s expectations moving to Seattle and what she ultimately found there, how the city can foster the adventures of a newer band who’s still learning the ropes, and then a bit on her responsibility as a fellow woman to speak against misogyny while also balancing the need to ignore it at times.

Thanks so much to Lisa for chatting with me over Skype and for being my inspiration to stop smoking!

Thanks to The Fresh Brunettes for providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby.


Download GRRL032 at Libsyn [35 minutes; 34MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Quitting smoking and changes in Lisa’s screaming voice because of it
  • The start of He Whose Ox is Gored, 7 (8?) years ago
    • Meeting at Guitar Center, finding other folks who are just as serious about music as she is
    • Buying a synth and inviting herself into the band
  • Moving to Seattle – what were her expectations, and were those expectations met?
    • Feeling lucky finding the DIY scene there
  • The need for smaller venues for new and emerging bands
    • A safe space to learn how to be a band
    • Seattle has a cooperative, supportive underground music scene
    • “I fucking love Seattle!”
  • Will Seattle be able to “contain” He Whose Ox is Gored?
    • Every band has a different goal and/or path, dependent on lifestyle.
    • The possibility of over-playing a city or market; does that apply to younger bands too?
    • What He Whose Ox is Gored did when they were a younger band–“it’s because they were taking a leak somewhere and they saw our name!”
  • Advice and mistakes of being a younger band
    • “Do whatever it takes.” Not being afraid to try new things
    • Using mistakes and failure to grow as a band
  • Song clip: Fucked and Bound’s “00FUXX”
  • Talking about her new hardcore band, Fucked and Bound
    • New record unreleased at time of the interview, but can be ordered via Atomic Action Records
  • How does Lisa have the time for everything?
    • Music as her main focus
    • Making the switch to not drinking/not partying a few years back so she can focus on her projects
    • Game of Thrones
  • She reiterates, “I do watch a lot of Game of Thrones.”
  • DIY merch creation
    • The Vera Project – take a class and then can use their screenprinting lab
    • We both grouse about screenprinting and other DIY travails
    • The pride of making and selling their own merchandise
  • Can the metal (or more generally the music) scene be more inclusive? If you want to hear Sarah from Spotlights’ answer to that, head to her episode here.
    • Seattle can feel like an inclusive bubble.
    • Deciding to “hit the ignore button” vs speaking out against microaggressions (mansplaining, inappropriate questions, etc.) on tour
    • Responsibility to other women to speak up
    • Taking it night by night and/or situation by situation
  • Feeling hopeless in this current political climate
    • Solidarity, speaking out, not giving up
    • Using our anger to “hit the pavement”
  • Song clip: He Whose Ox is Gored’s “Machina



BONUS: Emily Williams on her psychosexuality and exploring gender via science and engineering (GRRL031B)

Welcome to Grrl on Grrl’s very first BONUS EPISODE, featuring deleted clips from Emily Williams’ interview (which you can listen to here)! In this bonus episode, we’ll talk about Emily’s changing psychosexuality pre- and post-transition, how science can help or hinder the exploration of gender and sexuality, and general science talk.

Thank you to Emily Williams for getting very personal with me. She continues to get real personal at her blog and in her music project Axis Evil, so don’t forget to check those out.

Thanks to The Fresh Brunettes for providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby.


Download GRRL031B at Libsyn [14 minutes; 14MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Going public with her blog “Brace yourself!” and exploring her psychosexuality
    • How does the patriarchy and societal expectation shape our sexuality?
    • Gynephilic -> bisexual
  • Estrogen expanding emotional range
  • Gender and sex as a social construct and biological – “And I’ll keep claiming that until I come up with a better idea.”
  • Combining scientific approach and personal narrative
    • “I don’t have the data to write a solely scientific book.”
  • Science used as validation for experience but then as gatekeeper
    • “I don’t need a scientist to tell me I’m trans.”
  • Pitfalls of scientific method and how that will affect researching sex, gender, and sexuality
    • The differences between scientist (academic) and engineer (making an actual product)


Emily Williams of Axis Evil and on her trans experience and cultural appropriation (GRRL031)

Grrl on Grrl is back again with episode 31 featuring Emily Williams.

We talk about her music project Axis Evil–some weird time signature drum stuff, some weird guitar stuff,  a sitar she bought in India, along with some very, very personal lyrics; navigating her trans-ness and her woman-ness thru the lenses of her science and engineering background at her blog; and being a token minority.

The interview was recorded early 2017, when she had just recently released her album City of God. Since then, she’s released a second album Light Me Up and Love the Bomb in September of 2017, and she continues to release new material.

Thank you to Emily Williams for taking the time to sit with me and for sharing her thoughts and music.

Thanks to The Fresh Brunettes for providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby.


Download GRRL031 at Libsyn [35 minutes; 34MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Her music project, Axis Evil – “sophisticated punk rock that borders metal”
    • Getting her heart broken over two Valentine’s Days: “I was really pissed that I didn’t have a date… so I wrote a song.”
    • Playing around with algorithms with multiple types of drummers (sounds like GarageBand)
    • Multiple layers
  • Learning and playing the sitar / cultural appropriation
    • A tangent into June wanting to learn the shamisen; fears of it and other “exotic” instruments being used just for musical flavor
    • Cultural appropriation – how does Emily, a non-Indian white woman, justify learning the sitar and using it in her music – “paying her dues”
      • A set piece vs. an entire culture/history
  • “Prim and proper lady-like behavior” – Wrestling with the concept of “being a woman” and further “being a lady”
    • Being forced into the lady-like behavior vs. choosing it as an exploration of gender
    • Head over to bonus episode GRRL031B to hear more about her exploration of her psychosexuality
  • The marginalized being put in a box by the unmarginalized
  • More information on the model minority myth
    • Model minority myth goes hand-in-hand with white supremacy
    • The Model Minority is Not a Myth: It’s Ajit Pai” by Aditi Natasha Kini (published at The Root)
    • Placing Asians and Asian Americans in this “model minority” status has been historically used to pit us against other racial minorities – “Why can’t you work hard like the Asians?”
    • It puts Asian Americans in a monolithic group, which can be dangerous to those who don’t fit the “mold” or don’t come from the right countries
  • [12:10] Axis Evil – Redshift
  • Being a woman in science and engineering
    • Her job and people at work were supportive, but hostile while a student (and pre-transition)
    • Being transgender as a bribery and blackmail risk; can’t work with the military / get a security clearance
  •  Feeling safe while on the military base vs. out in the city in the Deep South
    • “Bathroom bill” – attempts to legislate who can and cannot use their bathroom based on their gender and sex
    • Class & education being more tolerant? Eeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
    • “You have to understand… I had to rationalize this to walk out the door.”
  • [21:10] Axis Evil – You Can Drive the World
  • Telling the woman she loved that she loved her
    • “Talk”, “Waste”, “Prayer” on City of God were about her
  • How has transitioning affected Emily’s music
    • Changing audiences and marketability
    • City of God as part of a trans narrative
  • Facebook marketing in India
    • Branding as being “selectively famous”
  • What’s the difference Emily wants to make with her music?
    • Suicide rate in the trans community
    • Being an additional voice not just for herself but for future voices
    • Her voice being one type of voice, but we need different types of voices
  • [32:15] Axis Evil – Stand