Writer Carina Browder on writing about what actual inclusivity would look like in the music scene (GRRL033)

Welcome to Grrl on Grrl episode 33! In this episode, Carina Browder joined me over Skype……….. more than a year ago, to discuss writing about music, especially in the pop punk scene, talking shit about a *certain music publication* and offering less problematic ways to learn about music and embrace diversity. She is currently on hiatus from freelance writing but has started work for a pop culture convention.

I had planned on smooshing this interview with another one I did with Kika Chatterjee, another music writer, but fuck it. They each deserve their own episode. You’ll hear Kika’s soon(ish?), along with interviews from Boneth Ahaneku and Lys Guillorn, the latter two edited with the amazing Sarah Parish, who answered my call for help.

Thanks to The Fresh Brunettes for providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby. And of course, thank you to Carina Browder for her patience and to all of you folks for still checking in.


Download GRRL033 at Libsyn [~38 minutes; 37MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Mentioned articles in intro: “Defend Girls Not Pop Punk” at the Tempest and “Your Call for Inclusion Leaves Me Out”
  • Inspiration for bringing intersectionality into music writing
    • Atlanta – seeing kids with their parents at shows – reminding Carina of her dad taking her to shows
    • Social media management/starting a Tumblr community for black girls who liked pop punk and alternative
  • What drew Carina to write about music?
  • Why write about music specifically?
  • [11:00] Staircase Spirits – “Roulette”
  • Talking about not just gender-based inclusion but racial inclusion as well
  • Culture shock when moving away from other multiracial military kids to more segregated Atlanta, Georgia
    • Clinging to representation in pop culture
  • What kind of issues does Carina want to cover or want to see covered?
    • People are multi-faceted and have multiple identities
    • Adia Victoria
  • June: being referred to as just “the Asian”, being seen as the outsider, “the Othering”
  • [23:45] No Home – “Suffering for Reputation”
  • What draws you to cover a certain artist?
  • Dream publications – wanting to write for teen-oriented magazines
  • Problematic publications – Alt Press
    • See list below for alternative sources/writers to follow
  • Things to keep in mind as a music writer / Advice for a music writer
  • Writing about diversity/pitching about diversity – actually examine what diversity looks like
  • What do you think we can do to bring more POC to spotlight?
    • Paying more attention to local music
  • [34:20] Kareen Lomax – “Melatonin”


Carina’s Suggested Writers to Follow


I need help.

Hi. It is with much anxiety that I’m asking y’all for help.

Would anybody be interested in helping me sync up interview tracks, and even further, helping with basic content editing (taking out obvious tangents, long pauses)? I’m not even sure which part of the editing process is filling me with the most dread, but regardless, it’s stopping me from actually sitting down in front of my computer and actually doing work on them.

I can offer small payment in addition to trade in services (content writing, Tarot readings from a personal/creative growth angle, “brochure”-type web design). Help with one, help with some, help with all, any degree of assistance would be sooo helpful getting my ass into gear.

If you’d like to help finish up Grrl on Grrl in 2018, please shoot me an email at grrlongrrlpodcast@gmail.com, or I’d appreciate a share to a friend or on your wall. Thank you again!

2018 Updates and Announcement

Dear Grrl on Grrl listeners (and fans??),

I just wanted to let you know that I haven’t forgotten about you, and that I still have episodes on their way.

Next up will be a joint episode with Kika Chatterjee and Carina Browder, who I interviewed as music writers, but in the year+ since I recorded them, have grown into other roles in the arts and music scene. So I’m very excited to share that with you soon. But it’s taking longer than I expected, between the logistics of “storyboarding” two discrete interviews and turning it into one episode, panicking about other projects I’ve had in the pipelines for awhile, and just plain needing a break. (But, if you’ve been listening long enough, you know that I’m not shy about taking those breaks!)

After that I have 4 interviews which will probably take awhile to get out as well. Why? Well, they’re still in their raw forms, and 2 of the interviews are with the full band, each member on a separate track. It’s going to take *awhile* to edit. But I *will* edit them and share them. It’s a promise I made myself at the start of the year, and it’s one I intend to keep.

That might seem ominous, and maybe it is.

I’ve found myself in a different mental, emotional, and philosophical space nowadays that I don’t think Grrl on Grrl completely embodies anymore. That’s not to say that I am not proud of the podcast, because I am, of the place this podcast can have in feminist/music discussions, and of myself, because up to this point, the podcast is probably the longest-running project I’ve ever had my hands on. But I’ve decided that once these remaining interviews are released, that I will be finished producing Grrl on Grrl.

The files will remain because I still think Grrl on Grrl can be an important resource. In fact, once I’ve finished releasing the remaining interviews, I plan on going through and creating school- and family-friendly versions of each episode, which would include cutting out adult language and adult tangents that wouldn’t be appropriate for say, a middle school or high school environment. (And if anybody has any insight on this, please feel free to get in contact!)

The message I wanted to put out when I first envisioned Grrl on Grrl was the message I wanted to give ME when I was in middle school and high school. So if there’s a way I can do that for others with this podcast, I will.

Thank you so much for the past two years and for this next year. If it weren’t for all of your support, your post shares and retweets, your Instagram hearts, your emails, I’m not sure I would have made it past the first three episodes.

So stay tuned for Kika and Carina, The Variants, Lys Guillorn, Boneth of Mr. Atomic, and Ludlow!


Lisa Mungo on Seattle, how to be new band, and inclusivity in metal (GRRL032)

Welcome to Grrl on Grrl episode 32, featuring Lisa Mungo of metal band He Whose Ox is Gored and hardcore band Fucked and Bound.

I met with Lisa in 2016 when He Whose Ox is Gored played in San Diego, and we recorded this interview in February after the first women’s march… yes, it’s taken me a whole year to put this out. Yiiiikes.

Since the interview, Lisa’s other band–who we talk about but not name in this episode–Fucked and Bound, announced the release of their first album Suffrage.  You can pre-order (or buy, depending on when you see this) the album via Atomic Action Records. They start shipping February 16, 2018.

We also talk about Lisa’s expectations moving to Seattle and what she ultimately found there, how the city can foster the adventures of a newer band who’s still learning the ropes, and then a bit on her responsibility as a fellow woman to speak against misogyny while also balancing the need to ignore it at times.

Thanks so much to Lisa for chatting with me over Skype and for being my inspiration to stop smoking!

Thanks to The Fresh Brunettes for providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby.


Download GRRL032 at Libsyn [35 minutes; 34MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Quitting smoking and changes in Lisa’s screaming voice because of it
  • The start of He Whose Ox is Gored, 7 (8?) years ago
    • Meeting at Guitar Center, finding other folks who are just as serious about music as she is
    • Buying a synth and inviting herself into the band
  • Moving to Seattle – what were her expectations, and were those expectations met?
    • Feeling lucky finding the DIY scene there
  • The need for smaller venues for new and emerging bands
    • A safe space to learn how to be a band
    • Seattle has a cooperative, supportive underground music scene
    • “I fucking love Seattle!”
  • Will Seattle be able to “contain” He Whose Ox is Gored?
    • Every band has a different goal and/or path, dependent on lifestyle.
    • The possibility of over-playing a city or market; does that apply to younger bands too?
    • What He Whose Ox is Gored did when they were a younger band–“it’s because they were taking a leak somewhere and they saw our name!”
  • Advice and mistakes of being a younger band
    • “Do whatever it takes.” Not being afraid to try new things
    • Using mistakes and failure to grow as a band
  • Song clip: Fucked and Bound’s “00FUXX”
  • Talking about her new hardcore band, Fucked and Bound
    • New record unreleased at time of the interview, but can be ordered via Atomic Action Records
  • How does Lisa have the time for everything?
    • Music as her main focus
    • Making the switch to not drinking/not partying a few years back so she can focus on her projects
    • Game of Thrones
  • She reiterates, “I do watch a lot of Game of Thrones.”
  • DIY merch creation
    • The Vera Project – take a class and then can use their screenprinting lab
    • We both grouse about screenprinting and other DIY travails
    • The pride of making and selling their own merchandise
  • Can the metal (or more generally the music) scene be more inclusive? If you want to hear Sarah from Spotlights’ answer to that, head to her episode here.
    • Seattle can feel like an inclusive bubble.
    • Deciding to “hit the ignore button” vs speaking out against microaggressions (mansplaining, inappropriate questions, etc.) on tour
    • Responsibility to other women to speak up
    • Taking it night by night and/or situation by situation
  • Feeling hopeless in this current political climate
    • Solidarity, speaking out, not giving up
    • Using our anger to “hit the pavement”
  • Song clip: He Whose Ox is Gored’s “Machina



BONUS: Emily Williams on her psychosexuality and exploring gender via science and engineering (GRRL031B)

Welcome to Grrl on Grrl’s very first BONUS EPISODE, featuring deleted clips from Emily Williams’ interview (which you can listen to here)! In this bonus episode, we’ll talk about Emily’s changing psychosexuality pre- and post-transition, how science can help or hinder the exploration of gender and sexuality, and general science talk.

Thank you to Emily Williams for getting very personal with me. She continues to get real personal at her blog Genderpunk.net and in her music project Axis Evil, so don’t forget to check those out.

Thanks to The Fresh Brunettes for providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby.


Download GRRL031B at Libsyn [14 minutes; 14MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Going public with her blog Genderpunk.net: “Brace yourself!” and exploring her psychosexuality
    • How does the patriarchy and societal expectation shape our sexuality?
    • Gynephilic -> bisexual
  • Estrogen expanding emotional range
  • Gender and sex as a social construct and biological – “And I’ll keep claiming that until I come up with a better idea.”
  • Combining scientific approach and personal narrative
    • “I don’t have the data to write a solely scientific book.”
  • Science used as validation for experience but then as gatekeeper
    • “I don’t need a scientist to tell me I’m trans.”
  • Pitfalls of scientific method and how that will affect researching sex, gender, and sexuality
    • The differences between scientist (academic) and engineer (making an actual product)


Emily Williams of Axis Evil and Genderpunk.net on her trans experience and cultural appropriation (GRRL031)

Grrl on Grrl is back again with episode 31 featuring Emily Williams.

We talk about her music project Axis Evil–some weird time signature drum stuff, some weird guitar stuff,  a sitar she bought in India, along with some very, very personal lyrics; navigating her trans-ness and her woman-ness thru the lenses of her science and engineering background at her blog Genderpunk.net; and being a token minority.

The interview was recorded early 2017, when she had just recently released her album City of God. Since then, she’s released a second album Light Me Up and Love the Bomb in September of 2017, and she continues to release new material.

Thank you to Emily Williams for taking the time to sit with me and for sharing her thoughts and music.

Thanks to The Fresh Brunettes for providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby.


Download GRRL031 at Libsyn [35 minutes; 34MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Her music project, Axis Evil – “sophisticated punk rock that borders metal”
    • Getting her heart broken over two Valentine’s Days: “I was really pissed that I didn’t have a date… so I wrote a song.”
    • Playing around with algorithms with multiple types of drummers (sounds like GarageBand)
    • Multiple layers
  • Learning and playing the sitar / cultural appropriation
    • A tangent into June wanting to learn the shamisen; fears of it and other “exotic” instruments being used just for musical flavor
    • Cultural appropriation – how does Emily, a non-Indian white woman, justify learning the sitar and using it in her music – “paying her dues”
      • A set piece vs. an entire culture/history
  • “Prim and proper lady-like behavior” – Wrestling with the concept of “being a woman” and further “being a lady”
    • Being forced into the lady-like behavior vs. choosing it as an exploration of gender
    • Head over to bonus episode GRRL031B to hear more about her exploration of her psychosexuality
  • The marginalized being put in a box by the unmarginalized
  • More information on the model minority myth
    • Model minority myth goes hand-in-hand with white supremacy
    • The Model Minority is Not a Myth: It’s Ajit Pai” by Aditi Natasha Kini (published at The Root)
    • Placing Asians and Asian Americans in this “model minority” status has been historically used to pit us against other racial minorities – “Why can’t you work hard like the Asians?”
    • It puts Asian Americans in a monolithic group, which can be dangerous to those who don’t fit the “mold” or don’t come from the right countries
  • [12:10] Axis Evil – Redshift
  • Being a woman in science and engineering
    • Her job and people at work were supportive, but hostile while a student (and pre-transition)
    • Being transgender as a bribery and blackmail risk; can’t work with the military / get a security clearance
  •  Feeling safe while on the military base vs. out in the city in the Deep South
    • “Bathroom bill” – attempts to legislate who can and cannot use their bathroom based on their gender and sex
    • Class & education being more tolerant? Eeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
    • “You have to understand… I had to rationalize this to walk out the door.”
  • [21:10] Axis Evil – You Can Drive the World
  • Telling the woman she loved that she loved her
    • “Talk”, “Waste”, “Prayer” on City of God were about her
  • How has transitioning affected Emily’s music
    • Changing audiences and marketability
    • City of God as part of a trans narrative
  • Facebook marketing in India
    • Branding as being “selectively famous”
  • What’s the difference Emily wants to make with her music?
    • Suicide rate in the trans community
    • Being an additional voice not just for herself but for future voices
    • Her voice being one type of voice, but we need different types of voices
  • [32:15] Axis Evil – Stand


Danielle Leonard of Topshelf Records on running a house venue & DIY label (GRRL030)

After a 6 month hiatus, here is episode 30 featuring Danielle Leonard! I met Danielle at the SD Women Music Industry night last year and was intrigued with her work running a DIY record label in Savannah, Georgia where she attended SCAD. She now works for San Diego-based Topshelf Records.  In this interview we talk about the ups and downs of running a house venue, her DIY label Bomb Shelter Records, and one way to foster safety in the music scene.

A warning in relation to our discussion on a safe scene: we talk about PWR BTTM as one example of a band fighting for safe spaces. Unfortunately, since the interview, Ben Hopkins has been accused of sexual assault. For more info and resources, check further down in the show notes.

Apologies for the crackly intro and outro “monologues.” Not sure what happened there!

Thank you to Danielle Leonard (and Marty!) for chatting with me and to all the artists for permission to use their song on the podcast. And thank you to The Fresh Brunettes, who are providing their song “Best of the Worst” as the new Grrl on Grrl theme song! You can find their album Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition on CDBaby.


Download GRRL030 at Libsyn [42 minutes; 39MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes

  • Danielle’s work in Savannah, Georgia with Bomb Shelter (the house venue and DIY record label)
    • Running a house venue: From not knowing what a PA system is to dealing with landlords and BMI
    • “Label” in air-quotes: Collaborative effort among the bands and the folks behind the label
    • Using equipment and facilities from SCAD
    • What they did for the bands
  • Using that experience to make her way to Topshelf Records (based in San Diego!)
    • Differences between working on Bomb Shelter and at Topshelf
    • How supportive Topshelf is – the DIY ethic but in a larger scale
  • Her role at Topshelf – “There’s only 4 of us.”
  • [12:30] Rubblebucket – “Raining” (Website)
  • Missing house shows now that Danielle doesn’t live in Savannah
    • House show scene sustained by those not old enough for bar shows
  • Couple of house venues in San Diego
    • The Habitat – the article I wrote about this in San Diego Jewish Journal
  • “If any city was made for [house shows], it was Savannah.”
    • Collaborative effort: everybody worked together to create this all-ages music scene
    • A few problems: Getting hassled by BMI, landlords, cops
  • Waiting to find a tight-knit music scene in San Diego
    • My own experience with the music scene here
    • Danielle: there’s more opportunity / places for bands to play, maybe?
    • (Whoa, I was 29 when I did this interview.)
    • I hate on Soma
    • “I’m gonna bring the shows to me.”
  • [26:30] Covet – “Pelagic” (Bandcamp)
  • WARNING: This is where we talk about PWR BTTM.
  • What’s a label’s responsibility for creating a safe music scene?
    • Diverse (gender and racial) tour packages and label lineups: No Vacation, Ratboys, Slingshot Dakota
    • I play a clip of Slingshot Dakota’s “Until the Day I Die” which was featured in this episode with Anastasia Rivera.
  • Sexual abuse in the pop punk scene & the importance of diversity to create a safe space
    • Less male-centric shows –> less violence
    • Women on stage being explicit about
    • The entitlement of “dancers”; don’t punch people at shows!
  • [35:45] No Vacation – “Mind Fields” (Bandcamp)


GRRL Interlude 005: Goodbye Polish, hello to you????, Felicia Williams, No Vacations, & podcast updates

Hey folks! Thanks for your patience waiting for new interviews. For now, here’s a mini-episode (“Interlude”) with some podcast updates and some rad poetry and music.

Listen Here

Download Interlude 005 from Libsyn. [~13mins; 13MB]

Show Notes

New theme song?

Do you want your song to be the intro/outro music of Grrl on Grrl Podcast for the next year? I’m retiring Polish’s “Drive” and am looking for a new song. Shoot me an email at grrlongrrlpodcast@gmail.com!

Podcast/hiatus update

  • I have 4 interviews I had done for the end of “year 2” but I’m just moving that over to the beginning of year 3 (aka season 3). I’m getting those all done before releasing them, so there’s a bit more of a wait!
  • New logo coming soon! Which means stickers, buttons, and maybe tote bags? What do you guys think? What about shirts?
  • Between all you listeners and Cinema Spartan readers, we raised nearly $250 for Planned Parenthood, and got to giveaway a huge amount of merch from 20+ bands from around the country. THANK YOU ALL for participating.
  • The Fresh Brunettes, Polish, and Slum Summer played my benefit show in mid-June where we raised $540 for Punk Talks. Yay mental health!

Felicia Williams

Her poem “How Many Bodies”, written after yet another shooting of an unarmed black man, music composed by Asher Mendel. You can find her recent work at Madwomanetc.

Songs featured

Thanks as always to Glenn Greggs of Wait Think Fast Productions, and to Felicia Williams, No Vacation, and Polish.

GRRL029: Writing in the car, 90s influences, and Instagram marketing with Dee Clement of Lonely Bones

Dee Clement joins me over Skype to talk about her new project Lonely Bones. Why can’t Dee write any love songs? Why does she insist on writing songs while driving? And what’s up with Instagram? We talk about those questions and more!

Previously of Peachy Keene and Sullen Ray, Dee Clement has been playing music and writing songs for a good while. For Lonely Bones, she’s working with Ali Coyle and Javan Slagle who are helping her produce the album.

Thank you to Dee Clement for chatting with me and to all the artists for permission to use their song on the podcast. And as always, thanks to Glenn Greggs of Wait Think Fast Productions–check out his radio show every Tuesday at 9pm EST at WCOM!–and to Polish for use of their song “Drive” as the intro and outro music.


Download GRRL029 at Libsyn [49 minutes; 45MB] or stream from these websites [iTunes | Stitcher | TuneIn | Google Play]

Show Notes



Announcing the 2017 Grrl on Grrl & Cinema Spartan merch giveaway!

33 different bands… 3 huge merch packages… 3 winners! Could you be one?

Click here for the full list of bands and the details of the three different packages.

How do I enter?

There are a few ways to enter the CINEMA SPARTAN & GRRL ON GRRL 2017 MERCH EXTRAVAGANZA (working title), with each person potentially able to have a maximum of FIVE entries, with a chance of winning ONE of the three big prize packages!

Deadline to enter is JUNE 10, 2017, with the actual drawing on JUNE 11.

Part of this contest is social media-based, so if you have a private Twitter or Instagram account, we won’t be able to see your entry. So you’ll need a public account if you want to be included! For Facebook, set your entry post to Public so we can count your entry.

Donation (2 entries)

  1. Donate at least $5 to Planned Parenthood
  2. Send receipt or screenshot of receipt to cinemaspartansd@gmail.com, with the subject line “CONTEST ENTRY”. We just want to see that your email address matches the one you’re using to send us the receipt, and the dollar amount, so feel free to edit any other info out!
  3. You’re a freakin’ angel. Feel free to donate multiple times. (But you still only get two entries.)
  4. Wait for June 11, 2017 to see if you’ve won your way to musical heaven. We’ll make an announcement and also privately message you for your mailing info.

Instagram (1 entry)

(Please note that if you have a private account, we won’t be able to see your entry, so please consider making your account public while the contest runs.)

  1. Follow both @cinemaspartan and @grrlongrrl from your account.
  2. Post a photo or video answering the question, “Who is your hero?”
  3. Tag #CSGOGContest
  4. Please don’t be a dick and enter from multiple accounts. That’s pretty shitty.
  5. Wait for June 11, 2017 to see whether you’ve won a package! We’ll make an announcement and also privately message you for your mailing info.

Twitter (1 entry)

(Please note that if you have a private account, we won’t be able to see your entry, so please consider making your account public while the contest runs.)

  1. Follow both @cinemaspartan and @grrlongrrl from your account.
  2. Tweet your answer to the question, “Who is your hero?”
  3. Tag your tweet with the hashtag #CSGOGContest included.
  4. Don’t be a shithead and enter from multiple accounts.
  5. Wait for June 11, 2017 to see whether your mind’s about to be blown with all the rad artists’ merch you’re about to get. We’ll make an announcement and also privately message you for your mailing info.

Facebook (1 entry)

  1. Like both the Cinema Spartan and Grrl on Grrl Podcast pages.
  2. In a public post, answer the question, “Who is your hero?”
  3. Include the hashtag #CSGOGContest
  4. Don’t be a goddamned menace and enter from multiple accounts. That’s not fair.
  5. Wait for June 11, 2017 to see if you’ve won! We’ll make an announcement and also privately message you for your mailing info.

How will you determine winners?

At the end of the month, we’ll throw every entry into a spreadsheet (or something similar) and assign a number. We’ll then use random.org to choose the winners of the three packages!

Or if Rob and I are feeling particularly whimsical, we might draw from a hat.

Only one package per winner.

How will I know if I’ve won?

Both Rob & I will post on our respective social media and sites (Cinema Spartan and Grrl on Grrl) to announce the winner on JUNE 11, 2017. We will also private message you through whichever platform you entered the contest to ask for your mailing address.

Any questions?

Email cinemaspartansd@gmail.com or comment below and we’ll do our best to answer any questions!

Feeling stuck on how to answer?

“Who’s your hero?”

Well, you can look at it a few different ways. For me, my personal hero is my friend M. because despite all the shit we’ve both been through, she’s stuck around, she’s worked through it, and now she’s helping other people get through THEIR shit too now that she’s graduated with an MFT!

For Rob, his feminist hero is Vera Papisova of Teen Vogue because as soon as she came to the magazine, she “adopted a more body positive stance… and focused on care and political activism.”

You don’t even have to write all that stuff out. I’m sure Rob is just going to post “Vera Papisova of Teen Vogue” with no explanation whatsoever, so…